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  1. Defese

    Jun 11th, 2009

    Messi would be nice but still not as a replacement for Ronaldo but for Kaka. Although the money spent on Ronaldo is ridiculous and he might end up like Anelka, Ronaldo and Messi are not similar players. Kaka and Messi are similar. What we should really be getting are top class defenders like Hierro and Roberto Carlos of the previous era and most of all a good coach like Del Bosque.

  2. Ronaldo-style

    Jun 11th, 2009

    I think that Ronaldo is better than messi because his shooting skill are incredible! Ronaldo can score even from 30meter-long distance. Messi can't because he is limited by his phisical skills.

    Ronaldo is better than Messi in velocity in the spaces (not in agility). Ronaldo can conquer a vacant ball with his dash and power, Messi can't.

    Ronaldo can score even with a head-shot. Messi can't because he is too short (The final of Champions League was an exception because he hasn't got near a defender!).

    Maybe they are 2 player too different to be compared, they are both football-prodigy and we can't stabilish witch one is better for real…

    this is my personal opinion…

  3. ------------

    Jun 11th, 2009

    shut up striking isnt everyhthing in a player! especially 2 make them the best player.

    Messi has the whole package:
    1)skills and i mean skills not that one same trick Ronaldo does. (if no one knows the trick well their dumb and oblivious to soccer)
    2)STRIKING THE BALL IN THE GOAL. he can do it with his head,feet and yes hand.
    3)speed oh and i mean speed they call him 'El Conejo' which means rabbit. he is real fast and they can barely knock him down. which leads me to my 4th point.
    4)NO ONE can get by him. the only way is to foul (which half the time he gets by) and when he gets down he gets right back up its in a flash and running to the goal again!

    give me good REASONBLY reasons as to why ronaldo is supposedly good.

  4. CULER-SOLDIER

    Jun 11th, 2009

    OH SHUT UP U SILLY MADRIDSTAS MESSI IS NOT FOR SALE NOR HE IS BORN FOR FUCKIN MADRID.MESSI IS A BARCA PLAYER AND ACCEPT IT UR STUPID PEREZ CAN BUY HU EVER HE WANTS BUT HE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO BUY INIESTA,XAVI,PUYOL AND MESSI.
    AND SHAME ON UR MADRID WHICH CANT DEVELOP ITS YOUTH ACADEMY WHEREAS BARCA PRODUCED TALENTS AND STARS WITHOUT BREAKIN THE BANK HA BEAT THT!!!!!!!!!! BARCA WON THE TREBLE IN A UNIQUE WAY WITH 6 PLAYERS APPEARING IN THE STARTING LINE UP IN THE ROME CL FINAL AND MADRID WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DO THT!!!!!

    MONEY DOES NOT BUY EVERYTHING YES MADRID HAVE KAKA AND RONALDO SECURED BUT THT DOES NOT GUARANTEE A TREBLE AND IF THEY EVER WIN A TREBLE THEN COME AND TALK!!!

  5. CULER-SOLDIER

    Jun 11th, 2009

    OH AND I FRGT IF U WANT MESSI THEN BETTER TELL PEREZ TO PUT THE BERNABEAU UP FOR SALE MAYBE FOR ATLETICO TO MOVE THERE COZ MESSI'S RELEASE CLAUSE EQUALS THE BERNABEAU'S PRICE!!!!!!
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  6. Geni

    Jun 12th, 2009

    Fuck of ur Fucking BARCA's
    Ronaldo is the best player which u can ever be able to see…..
    I love MAN Utd…..but whr ever Ronaldo will go he will set tht league on Fire with is unmatchable skilsss
    Messi is good but not as good as Ronaldo…
    So shut the fuck up and get on with life…

  7. guest - ksa

    Jun 12th, 2009

    hi .. i respect your opinion , but think of it this way …Ronaldo can do manythings that messi cant..he can score with his right foot,left foot , amazing headers, free kicks, play maker, amazingg dribbller….etc..if you see his goal against porto you will see the difference in what can ronaldo do in comparison to messi … do get me wrong .. messi is such an amazing player… but not better than ronaldo ..thank you

  8. admin

    Jun 12th, 2009

    Degrading remarks shows your incompetence to be civil.

  9. aham

    Jun 12th, 2009

    messi is a more fair player…to me he is also an excellent ambassador of the game…he embodies it's spirit…you fall,you get back up..you don't weep…and you DO NOT blame other for screwing it up…i don't know if that means much to you guys…the greatest difference is that though they are both good..and they both know they are one of the best and certainly the best of their teams…ronaldo wants his team to play for him…while messi plays for his team…within 30 yards..in a tight situation…ronaldo will shoot…desparate to try and add another to his records…messi will give it to someone better positioned…even though he can make it himself but he won't risk it…he realizes the responsibility to the team…

  10. RAZAQ

    Jun 12th, 2009

    Both of them are two different player, messi can hold the ball more than ronaldo but ronaldo can play free kick and more dangerous on air in front of gaol post!

  11. mike

    Jun 12th, 2009

    ronaldo is world player of the year…enuff said!!!!!

  12. Logic

    Jun 13th, 2009

    I completely agree with you. Messi is by far better than C.Ronaldo. He has been for three years now. And now he will easily be fifa player of the year after winning the champions league. He will also get the ballon d'oro. Messi is better individually and collective just like his club Barcelona.

  13. asa

    Jun 17th, 2009

    What a joke! =D Funny!

  14. AltaazD

    Jun 19th, 2009

    Saying Messi is better than Ronaldo is complete rubbish. If you say Ronaldo is better than Messi, that's complete rubbish as well. You're comparing apples to oranges; some people will prefer one while others the other. How many of you actually realise that C, Ronaldo and Lionel Messi, while being two of the best in the world, bring different ammunition to the pitch? Those who say Messi's better, how many free kicks has he scored? Ronaldo strikes free kicks way better. Those who say Ronaldo's better, how many times have you seen Ronaldo dribble past 4 or 5 defenders and score? Ronaldo can get past 1 or 2 with some great skill but when it comes to blowing past an entire defence, Messi's your player. Who has more flair and the better shot? Ronaldo. Who has a better work ethic, actually tries hard to get the ball when the other team has it and can dribble and pass as well as anyone? Messi If you ask who's a better fit for any team in the world, you'd have to look at their line-up to see exactly what they are lacking because Ronaldo and Messi are both outstanding but provide different ammunition in the field

  15. RELENTLESS

    Jun 24th, 2009

    MESSI LOOSER REAL FOREVER

  16. koko

    Jun 28th, 2009

    fantastic

  17. Qubit

    Jun 28th, 2009

    Technically Ronaldo is superior to Messi. As Messi's center of gravity is lower, he is not as prone to falling or getting tripped as Ronaldo and while Messi can have a quick change of direction the amount of tricks and the entire repertoire of skills that Ronaldo posseses is by far the best anyone has seen. Messi prefers cutting the ball on either side and has pace to burn in open spaces..while Ronaldo has taken defenders head on and absolutely made a fool of them. It takes more courage and cunning to do step-overs etc. at that level than merely cutting the ball on the side since it's easier for defenders to tackle a guy in full throttle than someone who changes directions. No one argues that Messi is not good but saying Ronaldo is weaker than him only serves to display a complete lack of respect for his immense skill level. Messi dives a lot too when he isnt given space..not to mention he is not a saint on the pitch either. Ronaldo also gives world's best defenders a headache as was seen in Euro2004 .. Euro08 etc. and Ronaldo scores more goals at club as well as national level as a simple comparison between both their ratios [goal per game] would confirm. People also have shut up Messi on field as was seen in many La Liga matches. But Messi is blessed with team-mates like Iniesta (who is actually better than Messi), Xavi, Eto'o and Henry as compared to Ronaldo's teammates who are clearly not at the same level! Even then he takes on teams single-handedly at times. And now that he is at Madrid with Kaka..finally he can show he is no fluke even against La Liga defenders!

  18. tommy

    Jun 30th, 2009

    Messi is by far the best!!! take nothing away from ronaldo he is fantastic at dribbling but messi can do those things but chooses not to thats way he is better, messi is the best player no doutb he player with the team not the team with him and yes messi short but that does not mean he cant be brought down just like ronaldo.
    Ronaldo is always just looking for that free kick messi gets right back up stills scores in open play. there are only three players in the world that are the best and that is MESSI MESSI MESSI and KAKA comes second.

  19. Murat

    Jul 1st, 2009

    I would say Messi's style is more effective while Ronaldo's is a bit more eye-catching (I don't mean I don't enjoy Messi's by the way). But why did you say Ronaldo's personality's better than Messi's? Do you mean going to night clubs? Heh. Messi is a better person (the only bad thing he's done is scoring a hand goal), but he could've chosen getting laid to improving his football, which would've increased his PERSONALITY in your opinion, right?

  20. danny

    Jul 2nd, 2009

    i like messi better

  21. fanofmessi

    Jul 3rd, 2009

    ronaldo thinks he is the best but he really isn't , when he does a trick it doesn't beat the defender , the defender is still on him and ronaldo is still at the same place xD , while messi beats the defenders mostly without tricks , he does it with his incedible dribble technique and speed and his smart thinking , the weird thing what i think about messi is that he can beat four powerful defenders pushing en pulling on him , messi is a short little man with way less fysical power than they have , ronaldo has good headers and a good and powerful shot but MESSI IS WAAAY BETTER THAN RONALDO !

  22. Hoon

    Jul 5th, 2009

    you dont know anything about soccer, and you have never watched anything else but Ronaldo's replays.

  23. Hoon

    Jul 5th, 2009

    that is one gol my friend. against porto. if you see MESSI'S GOALS, they are not all just SHOTS. they are built up plays where they they ttriangulate. for example, messi has SCORED THOUSANDS OF TIMES where he driblles in the defense, passes it to etoo, etoo just stops the ball for messi. stuff like that, NOT JUST SHOTTING LONG DISTANCE. i mean, actual TEAM BASED FUTBOL.

  24. Hoon

    Jul 5th, 2009

    We're not talking about who's more couragious in the field, we're talking about who's better overall, and i Would definitely think its MESSI. Ronaldo is good, he can shoot. but yeah, all he does is stepovers, then passes the ball back man. NO VISION. he doesnt go in the defense to make up a play, he just goes in there to try whatever. NO VISION of plays, again. Especially for a winger, since he is a goal scorer, u might as well put him as a center forward, but even then.and he can Euro 2004 and 2008, RONALDO did nothing good. the 2004 one, he just became selfish, and tried scoring, (like champions league) and failed. 2008, don't get me started.
    TEAM MATES = understanable, but are u saying that Ronaldo's exteammates (rooney, tevez, scholes, carrick, anderson, etc etc) succk right… cuz yeah, we have Iniesta Xavi Etoo Henry, but before the Champions LEAGUE, the story was completely different. United's players are good players cuz (according to most ppl) the english premier league is better than la liga, so what is that. I mean yeah, Spain dominated Euro 2008, and Barca Dominated Champions League (coincidence) (dont get me started on barca-chelsea, cuz same shit with korea 2002 world cup, it just happens). Barca is the best team in the world cuz we got MESSI, INIESTA, AND XAVI. i wouldnt be surprised if messi iniesta or xavi ended up 1st 2nd 3rd (no particular order) but in terms of FUTBOL, this year, ronaldo is not up there.

  25. realmadrid43v3r

    Jul 6th, 2009

    How the H3ll is Messi better than Ronaldo? You are saying Messi does not rely on his teammates as much as Ronaldo? ROFL hilarious, what games have you been watching? Look how many times Messi does thse “tiki taka” passes before he scores a goal. On the other hand Ronaldo can score with anything from anywhere, can Messi score a goal from 40 yards? keep on dreaming.

    How many times has Messi scored from a FK spot? How many? because Ronaldo scores FK goals as if they were nothing, same goes with header goals.

    Now, Ronaldo is also taller and stronger than midget Messi, that is a big advante whether you admit it or not.

    Cristiano Ronaldo is the main reason Man U have been winning all their titles IMO. I didn't like Ronaldo at all back then but after noticing his last two seasons, you CANNOT question his quality. For example, at the start of the previous season when Ronaldo was out because of his surgery, where was Man Utd at? 10th place or so. Then he came back against Villareal and his first game back he already proved to be the best man of the match. Not only that but he led his team to the 1st place in the premiership.

    Look at Messi, where was he at last year when we destroyed Barca? was he injured? haha because he was nowhere to be seen. Now, I cannot deny this season he did much better but he's not as big of a difference maker as Ronaldo. Look at the two chelsea games, where was messi at? NOWHERE. One of the reasons why Barca won the champions league was because of Iniesta who's even a much better player than Messi imo.

    DUring the final champions league game, Ronaldo did EVERYTHING he could for his team to win the cup but unfortunately, the rest of his teammates did not feel the same way. As far as Messi goes, where was he? he only appeared when he scored that random goal IMO. Iniesta was the reason why they won that game, period.

    If you say Messi is better than Ronaldo you are nuts. Also, to think that you wanted Perez to sign a BARCA player such as Messi instead of Ronaldo angers me, angers me a lot.

  26. realmadrid43v3r

    Jul 6th, 2009

    haha the fact that you call it soccer says a lot already. You might as well be quiet.

  27. realmadrid43v3r

    Jul 6th, 2009

    Look at you idiots write “Messi has been better than Ronaldo for three years now” LMAO then where the f#$^ was he last year moron?????????? HUH? WHERE WAS HE LAST YEAR WHEN WE BEAT BARCA 4-1???????????????????

    To me, most of these people are just glory hunters who started supporting Barca as soon as they won the treble, why? because it's clear they have no knowledge whatsoever. I dare that idiot to reply to me

  28. TO realmadrid43v3r

    Jul 6th, 2009

    Yes I am gnna be the brave guy and not an idiot to dare reply back and I'm gnna tell u why Messi is better than Ronaldo.And plus I'm gnna comment here as a neutral. If u are askin where was Messi during the clasico of 4-1 I wanna say it wasnt Messi only but the whole team wasnt there and thts coz of influential factors. The fact tht madrid had already won the league b4 tht match and the elimination of barca frm the CL signalling another trophyless year had already killed the competivness of the clasico and it wasnt worth watching as it wuldnt have added or lost anythin.And because of this the barca team which faced madrid had nuthin on their minds but ending the terrible season they had. SIMPLY: THEY HAD NO MOTIVATION AHEAD OF THT CLASICO COZ THEY KNEW THEY WOULDNT GAIN ANYTHIN FRM THT MATCH.Nevertheless Messi was the best Barca player in tht match plus dnt frgt he assisted Henry for the lone goal. But again this is not the match u wuld talk about how the player performed in it coz tht would be stupid to do so. Barca's thrashing of Madrid in the match of 6-2 is where u talk abt a player's mistakes coz I beleive there was still competition in the league and a win for mdrid might have changed so many things. Why didnt u mention the clasico of 3-3 when Messi was just 19 and he scored a hatrick by beating the likes of Cannavaro and Ramos when defence in madrid was given high importance during Capello's tenure.Dnt frgt again tht he is the youngest palyer to ever score a hat-trick in the clasico.

    Now comes the chelsea semi-final. I'm not gnna talk abt refree errors but wht I want to say tht the chelsea defence were good enough to mark Messi but even tthough he was kept quiet I still think tht he was influential too in Iniesta's goal. If he didnt take advantage of Essiens' error and passed the ball to Iniesta we would have seen a draw in tht match. And just imagine tht thing happened wen there were like 8 chelsea players defending near their goal.I would agree Messi was kept quiet and I didnt like his performances at all during both the legs but at least he tried and he did assist in the desicive goal, moreover the barca players had two matches every week for a long period of time coz of their presence in three competitions whereas on the other hand chelsea only had the CL and fa cup to compete for.This adds to the fatigue.
    So If Messi was quiet in tht match, where was Ronaldo during the semi finals of manutd vs barca last year?? He was virtually invisible in both the legs except for tht missed penalty. While he was just running around or hiding in both the legs his rival Messi was busy creating chances and caused lots of trouble for man utd's defence. Where was he during both the matches?????? He didnt create chances or tried or even tried assist the lone goal which was scored by Scholes which was a gift frm Zambrotta.

    To come to ur point of Ronaldo single handely helping man utd to win the EPL this season I will put in frnt a bigger argument. Messi was very influential in barca's treble and tht means he greatly helped his team in snatching all the three titles compare to wht happened this season or last season with Ronaldo.

    Simply, Messi is a much better player than Ronaldo. Ronaldo cannot survive and cannot shine without diving and begging for non existent penalties while I have never seen Messi being dirty on the pitch. I would rather prefer a player hu can play really well without being dependent on penalties and diving.One more thing, while watching lots of matches I have seen tht Ronaldo never shines wen needed during derbies or important matches. He takes full advantage of teams with weak defenders but where is he wen it comes to bigger matches. Messi is unique in all aspects. Speed, dribbling, ability to break through so many defenders, talent and even his goals r breathtaking.Tell me why do we always see 5 players marking Messi while I rarely see this done to Ronaldo? The answer is simple coz Messi is a bigger threat than Ronaldo.Messi is just as fast as lightning and u shuld admit it rite?

    Ronaldo goin to Real is nuthin to be happy about infact he will cause lots of problems in the dressing room.Not to frgt tht he is a selfish player havent u seen the CL final match???? I think his selfishness was one of the factors he couldnt get his hands on tht trophy.

    With Messi scoring two Maradona-like goals,his fantastic speed while breaking through defenders,his impossible goal against Osasuna, his header during the final eventhough he was short and his entertaining style of play and amazing goals all tht and he is still 22 wuld let a person throw Ronaldo's so called talents and his lavish lifestyle like actors behind.

  29. Marc

    Jul 7th, 2009

    The funny thing is that you seems to believe there was actually a chance for Florentino so sign Messi. You know what, the only thing Floro would have get from Messi was his finger in the face. :P

  30. Joe

    Jul 7th, 2009

    hi dude,
    Last week I added your link to my site footballitaliano.org

    did you add my one on your site?

    thanks
    G

  31. DARLENE

    Jul 7th, 2009

    # 1. real madrid “REALLY” needs defenders (and i mean urgent). here is the thing ..they dont want to pay them as well as they do with the strikers..wich is not fair…
    # 2. i personally think….hahaha…that paris (i mean hollywood and that kinda stuff) is not a good influence in C.ronaldo…come on man get away from her…shes going to ruin you….sorry …no ofence paris…..
    # 3 he has temper…maybe is not a bad thing..but….i always want to do the goals…damn ….pass the ball
    # 4. they need someone in the lateral sides that can do the job attacking as well as defending…am i right??
    #5. they need someone like… Gerrard(liverpool), xavi alonso(liverpool), lampard(chealsea) didier drogba (chealsea..i dont know what he has but i like how he play), robben give this man more minutes…he did it so well in chealse what happened???…….or might be someone like david villa( valencia) el niño torres (atl. madrid) give me some youth…if i still give you names im not going to end soon….
    #6. i love my ice man …iker casillas ..,hes the only one who havent dissapointed me….but damned he cant do all the job on his own…

  32. M RCKS

    Jul 8th, 2009

    messi is the best no one can say he isn't ronald at the champions leage sucked so bad messi acally did somethng unlike mr free kick who missd every single shot MESSI #1

  33. andree

    Jul 8th, 2009

    boooooooooooo

  34. ZAIN ELAHI

    Jul 8th, 2009

    MESSI WAS THE BEST
    MESSI IS THE BEST
    AND
    MEST WILL BE THE BEST
    FOR SURE
    AND THATS THE BOTTOM LINE

  35. spohg

    Jul 10th, 2009

    ronaldo is the best player then messi.. i hate messi mor then any thing in thius world..

  36. spohg

    Jul 10th, 2009

    hey you the point you say it describe ronaldo not messi .. messi is my servant and you're the servant of ronaldo.. did you understan you stupid.. i love roaldo more then ny parents

  37. spohg

    Jul 10th, 2009

    messi is the worst player. Ronaldo is better then maradona.. do you understand

  38. spohg

    Jul 10th, 2009

    you fucking bitch messi is the worst player.. ronaldo is the best.. he had scorre very nice and amazing golas thrn messi in Nepal we all are the fan of Ronaldo most of the people hate messi

  39. spohg

    Jul 10th, 2009

    messi is not a boarn star but ronaldo is. ronaldo has scoared very amazing goals

  40. spohg

    Jul 10th, 2009

    ronaldo is better then any one in this worl.. what a poem jocker love thid poem”messi”

  41. spohg

    Jul 10th, 2009

    you ass hole ronaldo is the best .. i hate messi he is the worst

  42. Murat

    Jul 12th, 2009

    if anyone says one of them suck they are lying. what people are asking here is which one is better, not which one sucks. they are both very good players, and don't tell me that you wouldn't like to see messi in a real madrid shirt. c'mon, just because he is in barça doesnt mean hes bad. hes improved by lots when compared to the messi last year. on the other hand, i wanna say i see a decline in ronaldos performance. and there is a fact i would like to point out to: ronaldo owes sooo much(more than ppl think) to manu. he performs poorly in the portuguese national team, but world class with manu. have u ever asked yourselves why? ok madrid is filling up with other quality players buy, are they going to play the team play manu did? u guys should hope so.

    P.S. I don't support any of the teams I mentioned above, nor any other team in their leagues. So don't start swearing. I also don't care if Messi dies or Ronaldo falls into the sewers. Football is for watching.

  43. moemt99

    Jul 15th, 2009

    lets compare cristiano and messi
    winner loser
    who shoots better cristaino messi
    who's faster crisaino messi
    who dribbels better cristiano messi
    who's stronger cristiano messi
    who' better in header's cristaino messi

  44. Murat

    Jul 16th, 2009

    ok then

    cristiano shoots better
    messi faster
    who dribbles better messi(that is, in my opinion, and thats where people usually argue)
    whos stronger…I dont really know…lets skip this
    whos better with headers…cristiano(i kno messi scored a great one but cristiano scores more often)
    the problem is that we cant find whos better like this. I mean is the ability to shoot superior to speed or not?thats what we have to find before we can find whos better.

  45. Icy

    Jul 18th, 2009

    messi is better than ronaldo because his foot and the ball are like best friends and he doesn't fall as much as ronaldo does which means he has better balance. Messi dribbles without embarrassing himself and rolling on the ground (hint lol). Messi is simply better team player and individual player than ronaldo and i think that Real Madrid is going to regret paying that much…

  46. shk

    Jul 27th, 2009

    Hey man, does your son's face resembles with messi's? thn wht's ur problem with him ha !?

  47. shk

    Jul 27th, 2009

    sorry, i was just replying the first reply to this comment

  48. Lionelravindra

    Jul 29th, 2009

    Dude i have more reasons to prove messi is the best in the world!
    i dont know why people compare a funny guy like ronaldo to a 22 year old LEGEND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I HAVEN'T SEEN MARADONA MUCH……………… JUST HIS VIDEOS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT I WANT TO SAY THE WORLD THAT THERE IS NO PLAYER LIKE MESSI AND WILL NEVER BE………….! FOOTBALL IS FROM YEARS BUT ONLY ONE PERSON IS THE BEST I.E “LIONEL ANDRES MESSI”. WHEREAS RONALDO CAN GET A BEST ACTOR AWARD……………………………..HE IS ALSO THE BEST DIVER IN THE WORLD………………. RONALDO DOES NOTHING ON THE FIELD………………… HEZ A WASTE…………………..!
    IF RONALDO CAN SCORE ATLEAST ONE GOAL LYK MESSI /………………………I REALLY RESPECT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT PPL KEEP ON ARGUING THAT RONALDO IS FIFA PLAYER OF THE YEAR FOR 2008…………………….. BOTH IN 2007 AND 2008 MESSI CAME SECOND BEST! RONALDO WAS GIVEN THE AWARD BCOZ HE HAD SCORED 42 FUNNY GOALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LETS SEE WHO CAN STOP THAT AWARD GOING TO MESSI IN 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO ONE I MEAN NOBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MESSI: FIFA PLAYER OF THE YEAR 2009!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    MESSI IS THE BEST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FULL STOP!

  49. 1amal1

    Jul 29th, 2009

    I think Messi is simply better than Ronaldo.The style of his play is incredible.I agree that ronaldo is good in shooting skills.But,messi is the player who is a real nightmare for the defenders

  50. sheenabh

    Jul 30th, 2009

    messi and c.ronaldo both are very good players


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